Bowel Moments
Real talk about the realities of IBD...On the rocks! Hosts Robin and Alicia interview people living with Crohn's disease, ulcerative colitis, or indeterminate colitis (collectively knows as Inflammatory Bowel Diseases or IBD) and the medical providers who care for our community. Join us to meet people affected by IBD- we laugh, we cry, we learn new things, we hear inspiring stories, and we share a drink.
Bowel Moments
Navigating FMLA and ADA: A Guide for IBD Patients- with Abbe F.
Navigating the workplace while managing inflammatory bowel disease can feel like walking a tightrope—balancing health needs against career responsibilities. This episode cuts through the confusion with straightforward, practical advice from someone who truly understands both sides of the equation.
Employment attorney Abbe Feitelberg returns to share her unique perspective as both an IBD patient and legal expert. She breaks down the Family Medical Leave Act (FMLA) and Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) in clear, accessible terms that empower you to advocate for yourself in any workplace situation. From understanding which companies must comply with these laws to learning exactly what paperwork you need, Abbe demystifies the process of securing your workplace rights.
The conversation explores common misconceptions, like believing managers need detailed medical information (they don't!) or that requesting accommodations might hurt your career (it shouldn't!). You'll discover practical strategies for maintaining privacy while getting the support you need, whether that's intermittent leave for treatments, flexible scheduling during flares, or immediate bathroom access. Most importantly, you'll learn how to document everything properly to protect yourself if issues arise.
What makes this episode particularly valuable is how it addresses real-world scenarios: When should you disclose your condition? What happens if your accommodation request is denied? How do you balance transparency with privacy? As Abbe points out, "These protections exist to help you succeed—never be afraid to ask for what you need." Whether you're currently employed, job hunting, or supporting someone with IBD, this episode provides crucial knowledge to navigate workplace challenges with confidence and dignity.
Links:
- Abbe's first episode with us
- US Equal Employment Opportunity Commission
- Info on the Americans with Disabilities Act
- Info on the Family Medical Leave Act
- Employee and Employer resources- Crohn's & Colitis Foundation- USA
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Hi, I'm Alicia and I'm Robin and you're listening to Bowel Moments, the podcast sharing real talk about the realities of IBD. Serve on the rocks.
Speaker 2:This week we bring back Abby Feidelberg. In addition to living with inflammatory bowel disease, she's also an employment attorney that works in human resources. We talked to her all about the Family Medical Leave Act and the Americans with Disabilities Act. This is great information for people living with IBD or parents of children with IBD, and we know you'll learn as much as we did. Cheers.
Speaker 3:Hi everybody, Welcome to Vowel Moments. This is Robin.
Speaker 1:Hi everyone. This is Alicia and we are so excited to be joined once again by Abby Feidelberg. Abby, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 4:Thank you so much for having me back.
Speaker 1:We are very excited to get into why we're going to talk to you, because it is for a very specific reason, but we're, of course, starting it out with our very unprofessional question of what are you drinking?
Speaker 4:I am drinking water because things over here are very exciting Water.
Speaker 1:Water. Water is necessary and vital, and I suck at drinking it. So good job, well done, robin. What about you?
Speaker 3:I am also drinking water, as you know, but today I have a very special drink Friend of the show, stacey Collins. Also, my dietician sent me a little care package in the mail because I'm having a procedure done next week and there was some chamomile peppermint tea in there and some honey. And so I'm drinking chamomile peppermint tea from Stacy.
Speaker 1:Oh, stacy, that's so sweet. Well, I am drinking. It is spirit free cocktail and it is a sidecar mimosa, so it's some sort of like hang on. It is a sidecar mimosa, so it's some sort of like hang on. I need to be wearing glasses sparkling blend of orange and lemon with hints of brandy and bitters, so that is what I'm drinking today.
Speaker 3:Is it an adaptogen? It says a spirit-free cocktail. So no actual brandy, just hints of brandy, Just tastes of it. Okay, yeah, no, there's no alcohol in it.
Speaker 1:No, no alcohol in it. Okay, just one. No, there's no alcohol in it. No, no alcohol in it. Lovely Right, fun Cheers, oh yeah, sorry, cheers, everybody Cheers, okay.
Speaker 4:Next question for you is remind us what you do as a profession, because that is the reason that we have you on the show, so I do a lot of things as a profession, but the reason that you all want to talk to me today is I am in-house counsel for employment and compliance matters for my organization, which includes oversight on our leave of absence compliance as well as.
Speaker 1:ADA. It was so beautifully concise. I love it. Yes, you are 100% right. The reason we want to talk to you is not just because you're a glorious person and we enjoy our conversations with you, but also that you do have this professional knowledge that we think is very valuable for the rest of the community.
Speaker 3:You just said leave the leave policy. So can you give a quick and dirty explanation of what FMLA is?
Speaker 4:So the quick and dirty on FMLA is it is the Family and Medical Leave Act. That's what those letters stand for when we think about FMLA. That is a federal entitlement to employees or companies that employ 50 or more people at a specific site or organization-wide. It entitles you to up to 12 weeks of leave in a 12-month period for care for your own medical condition or care for a family member with a covered medical condition. There is a new-ish development with who is considered a covered family member. Siblings have not generally been covered and are not lined out, but there have been court cases recently that have indicated that if you care for a sibling in the way that a parent child would care for each other, you may be eligible for leave under FMLA to care for a sibling as well for their serious medical condition.
Speaker 1:It's my understanding and, granted, you're going to tell me when I get this wrong, it's my understanding of FMLA is that, yes, you are entitled to leave and it protects your job, but it doesn't necessarily mean that there's payment. It's not like you get paid to be gone for those weeks. Is that correct?
Speaker 4:That is correct. So you can use if you accrued sick time or paid time off under your organization's policies or if you are in a state that provides sick time, which is happening more and more frequently you can run that concurrently. So if I'm taking six weeks of leave under FMLA and I have six weeks of PTO, I can be paid for that. In some instances you may also if your organization provides short-term disability that provides for partial payment of wages, those can also run concurrent. So your short-term disability may pay you up to your coverage amount for the time that you're off under an approved FMLA.
Speaker 1:Okay, that is helpful. Now, is it that your actual job is protected, or is it that any job is protected, like if you're gone for six weeks and they need to fill your job and they happen to fill your job with a temp employee or they put somebody else in your job, can you come back to the same job? Or would it be just like that you have a job at the organization that's comparable.
Speaker 4:So the interesting thing about FMLA is that you are entitled to be returned to the same role. That means that they can't make any substantial changes to your role. So one of the things that comes up in organizations that are multi-site is can we staff them at another location If that other location would substantially increase somebody's commute time? That's not considered the same role, even if functions are the same and reporting structure is the same. So you really are entitled to be returned to your same role. So if your organization is covering a business need while you're on protected leave, they need to make sure that your role is available for you when you are ready to return.
Speaker 3:I'm going to jump in real fast. I'm sorry, alicia, because when you gave part of your description before, you said an approved medical leave, so could you go into that a little bit? Yeah, so.
Speaker 4:FMLA applies to your own serious health condition or care for another with a serious health condition. So you're not going to go on FMLA because you've had the flu for one day. Fmla is generally sought by people that either have a chronic condition that requires ongoing treatment or if you're hospitalized for any reason for an overnight. So any period of time where you're admitted to a hospital overnight is generally going to qualify you to seek leave under the FMLA, and the reason that you would do that, even for that short period of time, is those absences from work would not be subject to discipline under an attendance policy. So there's actually two different kinds of FMLA that that brings up. There's intermittent and there's continuous. So you're entitled to 12 weeks total in that 12 month period that I mentioned. If you were in the hospital, say, for four days, and you apply for a continuous period of FMLA to cover those four days, you have your FMLA approved for those four days and then you have the remainder of that 12 weeks available to you. If you have any other instances, you would need to apply again If you're looking at FMLA for a chronic condition that requires ongoing treatment, like I have Crohn's disease, if I need off for my appointments and don't want to have to submit a note for that or be concerned about attendance occurrences.
Speaker 4:I am eligible for 12 weeks of leave to be used throughout that 12-month period for care related to my serious health condition and that would be an intermittent leave. Your healthcare provider submits paperwork for that explaining your condition. It explains whether it is something that is like that brief overnight in the hospital or whether it is a chronic condition that will require ongoing care. They do fill out information on frequency and duration of absences for that ongoing care if necessary. So if you have a condition that may flare up, they may take a guess at how many days that may impact you on a monthly basis If you have scheduled appointments. They would indicate that All of that gets submitted generally to a company's HR department or a third-party administrator, so it's not going directly to an employee's manager, so they're not getting all of that background information.
Speaker 1:Thank you, that was going to be. My question is, yeah, like how much information do people see on your medical condition? So it sounds like managers your direct manager doesn't see it, only the HR person, if there is an HR person.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I generally encourage employees to go directly to a benefits team or the human resources department in your organization. We actually discourage my organization managers from asking for anything. So what we tell them is if you have an employee who says to you I missed a bunch of work because we've trained them on when someone should be directed to apply for leave of absence, we don't want a manager having all that information because it poses problems if they do need to discipline them for something else, but we also don't want employees feeling that they have to share all of that with a manager with regards to an underlying health condition. That can make them feel like they may be treated unfairly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I was going to say do you train your managers to just stick their fingers in their ear and say la, la, la, so they can't hear anything? Because, yeah, it's hard. Because I mean, you want to be honest, I'm sure as an employee, and you have a good relationship with your boss, or you have a good relationship, I'm sure you want to be honest. But I agree with you, you kind of also need to protect yourself.
Speaker 4:We have trained our leaders to say I appreciate your sharing that with me. I'm going to have you speak with benefits or I'm going to have you speak with human resources, because they're going to be the people in the best position to get you the information you need. So we're not telling them to lack compassion when something is being shared with them, but we're also giving them direction to not probe.
Speaker 1:So you're saying my fingers in the ears, la, la, la is lacking compassion, abby it may not be the most compassionate response.
Speaker 4:You know they may appreciate the happy tune you're singing to them, but there may be a different way you want to approach that.
Speaker 3:That's fair, okay. So a follow up to that is is what would you say are a couple of like, maybe the biggest mistakes employees make when using their fmla because, like you said, maybe not tell it to your manager, maybe go straight to hr. Like, what are the biggest mistakes that you see that employees might make when trying to use their fm?
Speaker 4:So the first mistake actually happens before they're approved for FMLA. There are timelines when you request FMLA that you need to provide paperwork back, either to your human resources benefits team or if your company uses a third-party administrator. The biggest mistake is people don't provide the follow-up documentation and they don't communicate why. Most organizations and this is again under court guidance want to be reasonable for employees, so there is a 15-day time period to return that paperwork. If my physician's office is really backed up and says we have a three-week turnaround time, if that's communicated they're likely going to extend that deadline. But not turning in paperwork is the biggest mistake. Before you even get to approval.
Speaker 4:Once FMLA is approved, people run into challenges because they're not keeping track of their time. That 12 weeks needs to be accounted for and it's accounted for out of fairness for everyone. You get 12 weeks total. So if I use six weeks for my health condition and then I have to care for a parent with a serious health condition, I only have six weeks left, and so we want to make sure that we're handling everything fairly. Not accounting for that time can be really challenging, particularly with intermittent leaves, if you are in an hourly role where you are scheduled versus an exempt role where you're salaried and you just have your schedule as you set it. It's very challenging for employers to plan around that, and, while they can't discipline you for it, they can get very frustrated if you have known appointments and are not giving advanced notice, and so there are things that your employer has to do for you. On FMLA, there are also things that make you sort of a good consumer of FMLA, and it is that timekeeping.
Speaker 4:It is that advanced notice where possible. It is following call-out procedures. We can't discipline somebody who can't come in and they have approved intermittent FMLA for using that time, but there can be discipline if you're not following those call-out procedures. You still need to follow all of those rules that are in place for your workplace and I think all of that really just comes down to communication. It is frustrating for employers who are trying to do the right thing and it just puts up some barriers to being able to effectively use your time in the ways that you need to.
Speaker 1:So I work for an organization that is too small to have an FMLA to be covered by FMLA, but in past jobs I know I had to use up all of the rest of my leave before they would kind of let me go start to use FMLA. Is that a thing, or did I make that up in my and just assumed that was a thing that?
Speaker 4:is actually not accurate at all. They can tell you if you're taking FMLA you need to use your PTO with it, but they can't say you can't get FMLA time until you've used all of your PTO. Some organizations will let you take your FMLA as unpaid time if you don't want to use all of your PTO for it, because it's very hard. We hear a lot about work-life balance. I think more appropriately it's work-life integration. It's very hard when you're dealing with a chronic condition, either your own or somebody else you're caring for, to feel like you never have an opportunity to disconnect as a person and all you ever get to do is address your health concerns. So a lot of organizations will allow you to take that as unpaid time. But your organization can say your PTO is going to run concurrent or your sick time is going to run concurrent, which is why a lot of companies are looking at separate banks because they want a positive employee experience to not say all of your PTO is gone because you have a health condition.
Speaker 3:This is going to be a curveball Abby, I'm sorry. So if you don't know the answer, if an employee doesn't qualify for FMLA for whatever reason, are there other alternatives for them to take time off like this?
Speaker 4:So that is going to be company specific and to some extent, jurisdiction specific. So I mentioned that there are states and localities that have their own sick time provisions. So even if an organization doesn't offer sick time, if it is required by the state or the city that the business operates in, that sick time may still be available to them. My company, for example, offers company medical leave. To qualify for FMLA you have to have worked 1,250 hours in the previous 12 months and most companies pursue that on a rolling basis, not a January 1 basis. Both are valid, but most use the rolling basis. It's just easier. If you don't qualify for that, there may be other leaves available to you.
Speaker 4:So our company medical leave is intended for people that have not had a sufficient tenure with us and it is for a shorter period of time. It is not job protected. So if we do have a business need, we can't backfill that, but that's going to be specific to your organization's policies. So I really encourage everybody who is dealing with care for their own condition or care for another, when you start a new role and probably annually when you review your company's HR policies, really do a dig in there and make sure you understand what's available to you and if something is not clear, ask your human resources team. If you live in a state where you believe there is sick time and you're not seeing it accounted for on your pay stubs or in your timekeeping, ask your human resources about it. Those are entitlements that you have and so always want to make sure that everybody does a check on what's available to them.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned that it's companies with 50 people and above, or organizations with 50 people and above. Are there other companies or other ways that a company would not be dictated to by FMLA? It's like our federal agencies. Does this work for them as well, or are there other places that sort of don't have to follow this?
Speaker 4:So I am not entirely up on my federal agencies. I will be very transparent about that. But you did remind me the other space that this covers is for military caregiver leave. So that falls under its own set of definitions of who is covered under that provision to provide leave. But they are also entitled to FMLA for military purposes as well. The federal space is tricky and I don't want to speak incorrectly to that.
Speaker 1:Okay, can we talk about ADA please at this point? Do an overview please, if you don't mind, just kind of giving like the very like cliff notes version of the Americans with Disabilities Act. Sure.
Speaker 4:So the ADA is a law that was enacted in 1990, and it is intended to provide support to individuals to perform the essential functions of their job. The people that are covered by that are those that have their own health condition impacting one or more major life functions. So where FMLA can be to care for yourself or another, ADA is specific to your own medical condition.
Speaker 1:Okay, perfect, I guess. I'm curious like what? How do you know that you're? Whatever you're you're living with is a qualifying quote-unquote disability, when you know when, in this case of Crohn's or ulcerative colitis or some other types of autoimmune conditions, it kind of waxes, it wanes. There are times where you might be more sick and not as sick. So how would one know if their condition is something that's a covered medical condition?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a great question. It is something that affects one or more major life function, and so when we think about something like Crohn's and colitis that can impact multiple life functions, it happens to be a chronic condition that requires ongoing treatment. It can flare up, it is lifelong. All medical conditions are not covered, so things like the flu would not be covered. Something like that is not going to be covered. That's really transient. For the purposes of Crohn's and ulcerative colitis, we're thinking about things that impact now and will impact one or more major life functions, and that can include restroom, that can include, if people have associated joint issues, things like walking, the ability to sit or stand for extended periods of time all of those things that impact somebody's day-to-day.
Speaker 1:It's kind of the same question as FMLA how much information do you have to disclose of your medical condition in order for you to get accommodations?
Speaker 4:So the ADU paperwork is really interesting. What your healthcare provider has to certify is that you have a condition that impacts one or more major life functions. They're generally not required to disclose what that condition is. What they're including in that paperwork is that you have something, this is what it impacts, and that this is the accommodation they're asking for to be able to allow you to perform the essential functions of your role. So for somebody with Crohn's or ulcerative colitis, that may be a certification that, yes, they have a condition. It impacts their need for more frequent restroom breaks, and what they're asking for is coverage and immediate availability of a restroom when needed.
Speaker 1:So if you know you had a condition, you knew you were going to need some accommodations, but you didn't quite know what those accommodations are and you could bring in, for instance, an occupational therapist to kind of say, okay, this is sort of the accommodation that could be made. Whose responsibility would it be to pay for that professional to come in and help?
Speaker 4:figure that out. So yeah, it's a great question of how you figure that out. There is something in the ADA that is legally required, called the interactive process, and what that means is that if I, as an employee, indicate that I need an accommodation, it's helpful if I can suggest that, but it is not required. Generally, somebody's healthcare provider can make some suggestions on their behalf. When you're talking about who pays for it, it gets a little bit more complicated. It is generally on the employer if they are disagreeing with what you've proposed to them, but usually most organizations work cooperatively.
Speaker 4:There's a really nice government resource called the Job Action Network. It's called JAN for short and it has kind of an encyclopedia of most conditions that you could think of and potential accommodations to support them. So it's a nice way if you've got somebody that doesn't know what to ask for that an employer can go and spend some time there as part of that interactive process. The key piece of that interactive process is you do really want it to be cooperative. So if you're not understanding what somebody's healthcare provider has indicated, you want to go back and ask them. You want to tell the employee. I'd like to talk to your healthcare provider because I want to understand what they're asking for. It really is a support for employees and it is a way to allow people to keep the jobs that they were hired for, and engaging in that process really can help people feel that they've been heard and that they're not just being told this is what you get.
Speaker 1:Great, yeah, I do think having that be an interactive conversation makes a lot of sense, I guess. Kind of similar question is like if there was something that was necessary to help somebody like say, you know you have arthritis secondary to your Crohn's disease and you need a special keyboard or voice software that can help so you can voice text essentially, or voice you know type Again same kind of question. It's like if this is the thing you need in order to do your job, are you responsible for purchasing it, or is that something your employer would do? If it is something that could be that requires to be purchased, like a special chair, a special keyboard, whatever it is, yeah.
Speaker 4:So all of those things are generally purchased by your organization. The keyboards and the chairs are kind of the easy ones. If you need the ergonomic keyboard, if you need a headset instead of a handset for a phone, if you do need the talk to text software, those are always kind of the easy ones within reason. So if you as an employer coming back and saying I need the Cadillac of chairs, your employer can suggest something that is a little more the Toyota of chairs if it will accomplish the same thing that your healthcare provider has presented.
Speaker 1:Got it so like if you need a bathroom and there isn't one nearby, you can't require them to like build you a bathroom.
Speaker 4:You generally can't require them to build you a bathroom, but there is probably a requirement that there be one nearby and available to you anyway under some other lovely estate building codes. But that brings up the question of what constitutes reasonable, because the ADA is really geared towards reasonable accommodations.
Speaker 1:What do they count as reasonable? Who gets to determine what reasonable is so?
Speaker 4:reasonable is a little bit of a tricky determination. What you are trying to avoid as an employer is undue hardship. That's a pretty high bar. What is not there on that bar is a specific list of things that you can say. This definitely constitutes an undue hardship to me as an employer, and the assessment you're making is would there need to be a fundamental change to your business operations is kind of the key consideration. And then is what the employee is asking for is to remove an essential function of their job? The ADA does not require you to remove an essential function of someone's job, and so a request for that is generally going to be considered unreasonable and undue hardship.
Speaker 4:As part of that interactive process, we frequently at my organization have people that are requesting more frequent break time for one condition or another.
Speaker 4:We are a healthcare organization with a one-to-one treatment ratio, so there's some scheduling considerations there and there's some billing implications and we never want to say no straight away.
Speaker 4:So what we will do in that instance is let our employees know that we're going to implement their requested accommodation on an interim basis to understand how it functionally plays out and what the impact is on our business operations and if, after running through that we do an assessment and determine it as having a really negative overt impact on our business operations. That's a space where we would then say, as the employer, we don't feel that this is a reasonable accommodation and we would notify the employee of that. We would usually give an opportunity to see if there's something else that we might be able to try before we just simply say we're unable to employ you. But the undue hardship reasonable assessment is up to the employer. If an employee has an accommodation denied, they do have the ability to pursue that through state agencies, through the EEOC and through the court system to say that their employer did not engage appropriately in that process.
Speaker 1:I do think that's a key point to make is that a reasonable accommodation for a job isn't that you can't do an essential part of the job, it's that you might need assistance to do it, and I think that's the part that sometimes people get a little kind of confused about. It's like you still have to be able to do the job the job as it is and the essential pieces of it. It's just you might need something to help you do it, but if you can't do an essential part of the job, then you're just not qualified for the job. Which kind of same thing for all the rest of us too. Like if there's a big piece of my job I can't do, then I'm not qualified for the job.
Speaker 4:Exactly so. The ADA really says that you are able to perform the essential functions of your job with or without reasonable accommodation, and so you do have to have the qualifications for the job.
Speaker 1:Right. Super helpful Knowing that you're not providing any sort of legal advice right now, but, in general, what is perhaps kind of some of the best practices around when you might want to disclose that you need a reasonable accommodation as a job applicant.
Speaker 4:So there's actually an interesting piece of the ADA which indicates that reasonable accommodations need to be provided to somebody if they need them for support during the interview process. So you do have the opportunity to indicate that interview process. So you do have the opportunity to indicate that. And most actually, I have not seen in recent history any employer that as part of their application doesn't ask a self-identification question regarding disability and, companion to that, they provide information on who to contact if you need support during the interview process. And that can be anything. Let's say, if somebody was in a wheelchair and was unable to travel for an in-person interview for a role that would be remote, it would be reasonable to ask for that interview over Zoom, all of those sorts of things. It would be reasonable to indicate for somebody with Crohn's or colitis, I need to have a restroom available to me. During an in-person interview, you don't need to indicate why. And during the interview process, somebody is generally going to ask for less documentation. Indicate why. And during the interview process somebody is generally going to ask for less documentation.
Speaker 4:Once someone has been offered a role, I think what I generally recommend is, as soon as you believe you need something, it's in your best interest to pursue that process, because what it avoids is an employer getting frustrated that you are or aren't doing something. It also avoids you feeling frustrated in a new position and it can give you some of those supports that you need straight away. We have employers from time to time that got really frustrated if they didn't say this during the interview. Well, they don't have to say it during the interview. There is no legal obligation to say it during the interview. There's no legal obligation to say it.
Speaker 4:After I've been working someplace for five years, I don't have to say it unless and until I feel like I need something. So at the point when you feel like you need something, I would encourage people to reach out to their HR and their benefits to ask how that process works. The interesting thing about ADA that's different from FMLA you do not have to make a request in writing If you as an employee, say to your employer I need XYZ because I have a health condition, without telling them what that health condition is. You've now put them on notice and they should begin that interactive process with you to understand what supports may be available and may be reasonable for you. So you can really do that at any time, but I think as soon as you know you might need something, it is in your best interest to do that to prevent any potential performance management, prevent difficulties in performing your job and really avoid any of that discrimination or retaliation that can happen.
Speaker 1:Great, Thank you. I guess that does bring up a different question, though, because you're right, the times I've looked for jobs there is in the application process the like are you somebody that's in a protected class, essentially? So what happens if you don't disclose at that moment?
Speaker 4:If you, as an employee, do not disclose during the interview process or at any point in time, you cannot be punished for that. They can't take performance management action. They cannot discriminate against you. None of those things can legally happen. When I say they can't, it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. It means that it can't legally happen. And so if you're not comfortable disclosing that during an interview process, you don't have to do that. If there's no accommodation that you need during the interview process, if you are looking at a role and don't think you would need an accommodation, or if you just don't want to disclose it at that point, you don't have to do that.
Speaker 3:Are there any best practices or tips that you have for disclosing or not disclosing your chronic illness at work or during the hiring process? Do you have any recommendations about that?
Speaker 4:I recommend being reasonable. If you are looking at a role and you reasonably believe that you may need an accommodation once you've begun employment, I really suggest that you have a conversation before, and that doesn't necessarily need to be to your manager. That can be directly to HR because, again, we want to limit and protect the amount of information that managers are getting. You can say to a manager I have a health condition and because of that I think that I may need something. Who do I speak with? I think you're asking questions. I think you want to be cautious of oversharing. And it's not because we're fighting the conditions that we have. None of us are embarrassed about them. They are a wonderful part of who we are. It's us are embarrassed about them. They are a wonderful part of who we are. It's because we want to make sure we're not giving information to people that don't need to have it in a way that isn't going to support us in our role. I think talking to a healthcare provider and understanding if they're familiar with that process. So if I speak with my GI and say here's what I'm looking for, can you help me? Most healthcare providers want to support their patients. They understand that we want to go to work, we get the treatment we get and we do the things we do so that we can be the people we want to be. And most healthcare providers want to work through that process and support you, and I think that most employers genuinely want to do the right things for their employers.
Speaker 4:So I think, being transparent with the right people, being reasonable about what you're asking for it is probably not going to be reasonable if you work in an hourly setting to indicate that you are going to need to be off four hours a day, five days a week that's very hard for an employer to schedule around, and so you want to be thoughtful.
Speaker 4:It doesn't mean you're not asking truthfully for what you need, but you want to make sure you're not over asking for things you may not need. And then the other space is that accommodations can be given for chronic lifelong conditions. They can also be on a temporary basis, so you may have one set of accommodations regularly. So again that restroom access or additional breaks if you're experiencing a lot of fatigue or a later start time. If your medications are making it tough for you in the morning, you may have a different set of accommodations when you're having a flare. You don't want to abuse those, the same as we want to be reasonable with any use of leave time. We don't want to abuse accommodations because it just means that for the next person that asks it's going to be more challenging.
Speaker 3:What about in a remote working environment? Are there reasonable accommodations?
Speaker 4:So within a remote working environment, reasonable accommodations are really going to hint on what you need. So if you're working remote for a call center and you're expected to be logged in to a phone system or into a computer system that's tracking your engagement, you may need to ask for additional break time so that you're not having an accountability for metrics, you're not meeting for a number of calls being handled per hour. If you're in more of a salaried exempt role where you again have a little more ownership of your calendar, if you need to log in later on certain days or be off for treatment or have an accommodation that you can have your camera off, for example, because you're able to work through treatment.
Speaker 4:Those are reasonable things. The other space I happen to travel a lot for my role. It is reasonable to indicate that you may need a specific seat If your company's travel policy wouldn't generally allow for seat selection. If you need a specific seat based on access to the restroom, that would generally be a reasonable accommodation, even though there's an additional cost to an employer. Employers run into a lot of trouble trying to deny accommodation based on saying it's going to cost us too much and they need to do a lot of legwork in order to make that stand, and so things like seat selection could be reasonable. If you can't travel, that could also be a reasonable accommodation. If your company requires, when you do travel, that you need to share a hotel room, not doing that is generally going to be a reasonable accommodation for you.
Speaker 1:You mentioned the EEOC and if you felt like you as the employee needed to report your company or felt like that something wasn't accommodated, Talk a little bit more about if you were somebody who didn't feel like you were getting the accommodations you needed or you felt like you were being discriminated against, kind of. How would you best prepare to be able to kind of make your case? How do you kind of set yourself up for the best experience or response from something like the EEOC? Do you start with the EEOC? Are there other places?
Speaker 4:So generally you need to go through a state agency so Human Rights Commission for the state and you joint file with the EEOC. In most states You're filing one complaint and it's covered by both agencies and you need to work through that process before you're able to sue in court. What I really recommend is keep all of your documentation, and so it's really easy to use your work email to go back and forth or do things over Teams or Slack or whatever your organization uses to go back and forth with those messages. If you're someone that your company says we can't accommodate you, you've now lost access to all of those things and have to work with an attorney to request them, and so when you're working through an accommodations process, I generally would guide that you do that through your personal email. You have the same email response time, but you have all of that documentation and it's handy for you. I would also make notes. So if you have a verbal conversation with your benefits or your HR team or your manager, make notes of the dates and times that you had those. Make notes of who's present, and we never want to be working through a process assuming that something won't go well. But this is also helpful because there's often changes in leadership and sometimes somebody that has an accommodation in place that doesn't get communicated appropriately and they say, no, I have this in place and I've had it, and all the people that were on the other end of that email chain are gone, and so keeping track of all of those things and retaining all of those things will help you, even if you don't feel like you haven't been treated unfairly.
Speaker 4:But what you want to do is hold on to all of those things and if you do feel like you've been discriminated against, either by being denied employment, having your employment end or not being promoted or considered in the same way for merit-based increases and all of those things, you want to have all of that, and I really recommend that you find an employment attorney.
Speaker 4:Traffic attorneys, criminal defense attorneys, contract attorneys all wonderful people. There are so many nuances to employment law. You want to find somebody that is very familiar with your state's regulations. You're also going to find that somebody that works in that space is better able to ask you the right questions to understand what you've experienced and help you understand if you do need to pursue one of those complaints. One of the biggest things that happens is there are miscommunications or there's poor communication and it doesn't always feel great, but that doesn't always mean it's something that you need to spend all the time and energy working through one of those processes because they take a very long time. They're available for a very good reason and they are to protect people that have been treated unfairly. But really find an attorney that works in that space and they will help you understand what might be the best course of action for you and you mentioned, you said, your state agency and the EEOC.
Speaker 1:you jointly file. If you file with the EEOC, will they then file for the state, or are you required to do both?
Speaker 4:That one's going to be specific to your state. So it is specific to your state of which agency you file with and what is dual filing. Most states operate under dual filing now because it cuts down on paperwork. Many states are very, very backed up. So you need to file your complaint within your state's allotted amount of time. After you believe that something was improper, the state will work through a bit of a fact-finding process where they will ask your employer or your previous employer to submit documentation. You submit your documentation and then they work through a process and determine if it is a matter that they're going to take up on your behalf because they feel that a regulation or a law has been violated, or if they're going to say we're not making a determination, but you're welcome to file in court if you choose to do so.
Speaker 1:Okay, what happens if you file, you supply those things, your employer supplies those things, and then they turn around and say yeah, we don't think there's anything here. Is there any protection against discrimination after that point or being fired after that point?
Speaker 4:So if you file a complaint with any state agency and you're still employed with that organization, if they take any action against you based on your having done so, that is prohibited retaliation. So there is an entire separate course of action for that. What's really interesting is that even if a state agency says, or the EEOC says, the denial of the accommodation wasn't discriminatory, if they take action against you they may still find that what your employer did was retaliatory for your having filed that complaint and that's actually the harder space for an employer to defend against and it's actually the biggest risk to an employer.
Speaker 4:So we always really encourage that if a current employee has filed a cause of action, everyone be on their very best behavior because it's incredibly risky, but it is prohibited. It is a legal retaliation. Again, it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it means it's not legal and you have a separate cause of action for that.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's very good to know. You said something around treatment and time for treatment, so that made me think of like going back to FMLA. So bouncing back to FMLA say, you're on Remicade or one of the Remicade biosimilars and you need to get an infusion every six weeks and it's half a day that you need to go to the infusion center and you might. If you work remote, you might be able to work from there, but if not, then you need to take probably half a day off. Are you able to use FMLA for something like that because it's a just ongoing treatment of a chronic illness, or would you need to? Would that automatically be like sick leave because it's not a full day or an overnight stay?
Speaker 4:So that is going to be the great place where intermittent FMLA comes into play, and so that is where you would let your employer know I'm scheduled for this half day off. Please do not schedule me for this time. And then you're able. You don't actually even have to tell them what you're doing. You just need to tell them this is the time that I will be off and it is under my approved intermittent FMLA, and then you don't have to have a doctor's note for your treatment. You don't have to say to them like here's where I'm going and here's what time I'll be there. You have that time off and they can't schedule you, but you do want to give them that advance notice. But that's really the most typical case for intermittent FMLA is that and the condition that flares off, got it.
Speaker 1:I assume it's the same thing for, like, pelvic floor physical therapy or if there's other types of appointments that are treatment related, yep.
Speaker 4:Anything that is related to the condition that you have approved FMLA for is covered under that. So if you know about it and it's predictable, you want to give advance notice. If it's a flare and you don't know that it's coming, you want to handle that the same way you would. As you know, I woke up this morning with the flu and you want to call and give as much notice as is reasonable given your condition.
Speaker 1:Is there anything about FMLA that is specific to somebody who would have a child like as a parent of a child living with inflammatory bowel disease?
Speaker 4:So a caregiver caring for somebody else's serious healthcare condition is entitled to the same 12 weeks and is entitled to use it the exact same way as somebody who is dealing with their own serious healthcare condition. So if you are a parent of a child with Crohn's or ulcerative colitis and you need to take your child to appointments or you need to stay home with them when they have a flare, any of those things are covered in the same way as an individual who is dealing with Crohn's and colitis themselves.
Speaker 1:I guess. My question then is same thing with Americans with Disabilities Act? Is there anything similar to that when it comes to Americans with Disabilities Act, when this sort of disabling condition is actually your child's condition, that you're still protected in certain ways because of having this disabling condition as part of your life as a parent?
Speaker 4:So unfortunately, the ADA is specific to the employee's own health care condition. It's not a protection that exists because it really is there again for you to perform the essential functions of your role, and so, while you have the leave provisions, there's no workplace accommodation for you because the individual with the condition isn't performing the role. Okay, got it. That makes a lot of sense. I think what's really important is that, while it can feel really hard to tell your employer I have a thing, or I care for someone with a thing, or I need something, these exist to protect employees. These exist to allow you to be able to do your job in the best way and not be worried about I don't have a doctor's note or I'm going to be disciplined for attendance, or it's a challenge for me to do something and I don't want to ask.
Speaker 4:It doesn't always feel comfortable and, again, it's not because we have any level of embarrassment about what we live with each day.
Speaker 4:I'm really proud of having Crohn's disease and I'm proud of the life I live with it. That doesn't make it any easier to ask for things, and so I just always want people to know these exist to protect you and so work through the process that your company has, ask the questions you need to ask, figure out who the right people are to talk to and do what works best for you, and you don't have to do it again. You know you don't have to apply for intermittent FMLA if your role allows you that flexibility and you don't need it If you have a role that doesn't have that. You want to apply for it when you're eligible for it because it's there for you to use. It doesn't mean you have to use it, it doesn't mean you're necessarily going to use it, but it means it's there for you if you need it. And I think that's really important for people to understand that these are protections and these are things that are there to help you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's really important. I was curious, when you were talking about your job and being proud of doing your job with your Crohn's, what happens if you're the person who is the person that's supposed to be getting the paperwork for accommodations, or your boss is the person who is going to see the things that are typically more confidential information. How does that work? It's a great question.
Speaker 4:Some companies that are big enough have a third-party administrator, so there's lots of different organizations that will manage that process and it takes the employer out of seeing any of that because it's submitted directly to them.
Speaker 4:Generally, people in HR know everything about everyone all the time and we just pretend we don't in most situations. And so if you're the person that would generally review that paperwork, you're going to want to front that to your company, that I need something, review that paperwork. You're going to want to front that to your company, that I need something. And your company will either say, sure, because we don't know what we're looking at, because you're the person who looks at it, we're just going to trust you. They may have an outside law firm on retainer that will review what you're looking at and say, yes, this is reasonable and they will document that for you. But we generally within the people space are used to seeing some of everything and there's really no judgment. But again, if your boss is the person that that paperwork goes to, your boss should know well enough that they're not going to treat you unfairly or react to you in a way that's not appropriate. And if that happens, then you want to look at that retaliation space for having sought illegal protection.
Speaker 3:I really appreciate how thoughtfully you answered the question, because I'm the kind of person that and I've said this on the show before, but it's been a long time since we've talked about anything like this job hunting, accommodations I'm not quiet Like I don't hide the fact that I have Crohn's, because, honestly, I I don't have the energy to work someplace that how do I phrase this? I don't have the energy to work someplace that is not going to work with me or have accommodations for me or make it challenging for me. I already have, I've already tested my resilience factor a million times. I don't need to be any more resilient. I already have enough going on and I just, you know, want to do my job and I don't want that to be a factor. But sometimes I need people to know what's happening, and so I usually just am upfront right from the start, because if I get any kind of pushback or hesitancy, I know that that's not a place, space I want to be in, because I'm not going to be able to perform at my highest level.
Speaker 4:So it's interesting that you say that I have some things I've done with the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation and Team Challenge on my resume because I like to share, or I have community involvement because I think it helps speak to who I am. If you run a quick Google search, those things show up. So it's nothing that I'm hiding and I I try to front it in that way. But I did something really interesting. So my CEO knows that I have Crohn's disease and I don't know that he knew quite what that meant or quite the impact it had on my life.
Speaker 4:And so, after you all had me on so graciously last time, I sent him the link and I just sent it and say, hey, I just want to share this with you, it's something I did and it's something I shared. And I just sent it and say, hey, I just want to share this with you, it's something I did and it's something I shared and I just wanted to share it with you. And he listened to it. He was driving for quite a while between some of our locations and he texted me and said I had really no idea what you live with on a day to day and I don't think that most people would, and I think that when I think about our community of people with chronic illnesses, we just do. We do what needs to get done, we do it in the ways it needs to get done and we very rarely want to ask for help.
Speaker 3:I never want to ask for help. I never want to ask for help.
Speaker 4:It's hard.
Speaker 4:It's hard and it doesn't feel comfortable, and for some of us it sometimes feels like my illness is winning if I have to ask for help, and we don't want to do that.
Speaker 4:And so to have the opportunity that you all provided to be able to share with somebody that I have a very strong professional relationship with and give him some additional insight into all the things I get done for him and for our organization and for our employees, regardless of, in spite of, and sometimes because of, my experiences, was really really impactful, and so I think there are ways to share.
Speaker 4:When you feel comfortable doing it, that can be really meaningful. But no, we, we don't want to have to go through more, we don't want to have to justify why we're just trying to come to work, and so I think the way that you think about it not putting yourself in a situation and being able to say this isn't the right space for me, because I see how you're engaging is a tremendous level of self-awareness, and there are so many employers that want to make it the right place for their teams, and when you can do that as an employer, you have an employee that feels heard and valued and feels that somebody wants them there, and that's often going to be the person that shows up in the best way for you.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's beautiful. Disability or a chronic illness that does potentially impact their life in certain ways that actually, when you look at the statistics of attendance and performance and longevity of these employees, these tend to be really fantastic employees. They tend to be employees that work really hard, have good performance and tend to be very loyal to the company. That is kind of loyal back to them. I think that that is what I've seen in other things, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Speaker 4:Nope, not wrong at all. And I think as somebody and Robin, I'm sure you can also speak to this Like, when I start a new job, I have all of the concern of you know, are all of my healthcare providers covered under my health insurance plan and I run all of that benefits check before I start and so all of those things that cause angst when you're in a new role. When you've worked through all of those and you feel comfortable where you are and you know that you are able to do your job in the right way and you know that if you need something it's there for you. You don't want to leave and go somewhere else because you've built that and you've built that foundation and you've built a space where you know you can succeed. As long as that environment remains stable and supportive in the ways that you need and the ways that you've sought out, there's not a reason to look elsewhere because you know where you fit in an organization.
Speaker 1:Abby, final question for you. We typically ask what's your one piece of advice to the IBD community, but in this case, of all of these things we talk about, what is the kind of key takeaways from our conversation.
Speaker 4:I think really never hide from what you have and never be afraid to ask for the help that you need, and don't be afraid to raise your hand if you don't feel like you're being treated fairly. It's so important that all of these things and all of these processes are there. That doesn't mean everybody follows them, and so if you feel like something is wrong, ask somebody. If you feel like you're not getting what you need, ask somebody. But I think it really all comes back to just don't ever hide from what you have that makes you amazing and gives you experiences that make you such a valuable asset to others.
Speaker 3:Thank you, abby, so much for coming back on the show and sharing all of your wisdom and learned experience with us. Thank you everybody for listening and cheers everybody. Cheers.
Speaker 1:Cheers. If you liked this episode, please rate, review, subscribe and, even better, share it with your friends. Cheers.
